a few thoughts on last night...
Here's hoping someone is out there...
Most times I speak I end up thinking about things I didn't say or things that could have been misinterpreted, so let me start by clearing up a thing or two. When I said religion is a dry list of things to believe and rules to follow, I certainly didn't mean that being a Christian doesn't involve a list of things to believe. I have a list of things I believe to be true. I think, however, that too often in my life my relationship with Christ has devolved into dry religion because it's easier for me to check stuff off my list that to really engage God.
The other thing I wondered about was the whole, "Then Abraham believed...". I wonder if this was the moment that he "became a Christian", or was it when he began to follow God a few chapters earlier. I like the idea that we know when we decided to follow Christ, I just don't think it's that clean and simple for a lot of people. I think a lot of people follow God for a while before they know if they believe or not. I think this is part of the message of the parable of the sower when Christ says the seed started to sprout a plant, that looks like a follower of Christ, but the plant gets snuffed out. Not a very simple thing to understand or label.
Here's what I wish would change about me because of last night. I think that the degree to which I relate to God through my list is the degree to which I make others relate to me through a list. I wish I understood how much my personal relationships are dependent upon me receiving the grace of God daily. And I wish this would help me desire my time with God more instead of feeling guilty because I haven't done enough for Him to warrant Him wanting to spend time with me.
One last thought... the essence of Abraham's relationship with God, and ours, is trust. It's the basis for everything. And it's the same thing that was compromised in chapter 3 at the fall. They didn't trust God, and that's what God requires in order for that relationship to be restored. I was thinking the a lot the other day about the fall... about how the penalty for eating from the tree was death, so Christ's death was required as payment.... about how the violation was of trust, and trust is required to restore the relationship... and about how Adam and Eve and you and I are fundamentally flawed after that decision because knowledge changes everything and about how we really need to become new people and that's what the New Testament promises, that we would be new creations in Him... and how chapter 3 makes the rest of the story make more sense.
Sorry this is so long... I'll shut up now.
posted by jeff @ 1:29 PM
12 comments
12 Comments:
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the previous post was deleted because it was some type of spam/telemarketing blog thing that ticked me off... how do i keep that from happening again?
word verification could help...
in my perception, a common issue among believers is the point at which belief first took place. for most, the point of belief is the point at which action first took place. the question is, however, what action is needed - simply a realization and utterance of prayer, or life-change as evidenced by activities encompassed in routine or lifestyle. some people have a date at which they first believed, some people have a gray area that represents "the beginning" but are confident of their current position, just not when that position began. i think the danger in not knowing when the road first began is only in comparative terms - feeling like it is necessary because others may know a definite beginning in their own lives. what a wonderful point to make about abraham - the seed was planted and watered - when we don't know - but he definitely made it through the weeds.
I'm not trying to shoot your sermon down, argue, or misinterpret, but rather add something for discussion. Without any lists (however you wish to define a list), I think it's easier to be led astray. I'm not saying that we should go down the list and check things we have and note things we dont (maybe thats the real issue at hand - having checkboxes by the list that let make the claim that you "have" something), but it's really easy to get into the "spiritual groove" where you think you have an incredible relationship that really isn't as incredible as you might believe it to be. To me, a list is just something that helps me see what it is that I'm not doing - but only if honest about it. I see no harm in writing down stuff to work on - the act of doing so kind of admits in a real way that we don't have it together. The real harm, as I see it, is when you start to check stuff off and become complacent.
Also, on the idea of following Christ and the lack of a clear point when we decided to follow, I know the feeling. I was raised to say my prayers, knew the basic bible stories, etc, but I wouldnt have considered myself a "Christian". I think I could say that I even believed, but still, I didn't really "follow". This is kind of contrary to what you talk about when you mentioned people following before believing, and I don't really know how I feel about that. Is it possible to believe before following, or does following lead to belief? I guess it all depends on how you define "follow" in a biblical sense. Either way, for me, its not clear when I "became a Christian" - it was a gradual process. The seed was planted early and I managed to make it without getting stomped. :)
Jeff I liked how you pointed out that it was a relationship, because people always fudge checklists, just so they finish them. Besides, if we really took Christianity as it should be a relationship then more people would see God working and not care, what religion we were! Happy Monday!
Hey Jeff! Sorry I couldn't make it to hungry, but it was good seeing you at church .... hope you are doing well. :)
I like your thoughts on this. Belief and Religion are really complicated issues, and it's hard discussing them. I was talking to a co-worker of mine last night, and he asked me "So, church is a big part of your life now?", and I told him no. I had to explain to him that it was my belief (faith) that was a big part of my life.
Some people see us as going to church a lot, doing lots of church things, and they think that is what is important. Those are "the motions". But it's what the motions bring about is what is more important, such as worship at church = time with God, and fellowship with other believers. Also, some people associate church "religion" as negative things, because they don't understand the spirituality side of it. They see it as being for the masses, and for the ignorant. They don't understand that religion is rooted out of belief, and that they are meant to enhance belief.
At least that's my take on things ....
Alright, so my bible study talked about this stuff with a list back in the Spring and kinda came to a conclusion but not sure. not saying this is exactly right though
From the big picture it seems like humans are very undisciplined, and that is why during the old convenant there was the law. The Jews needed the law to keep them on track, but since we as humans suck the Jews just could never stick to the law. But the people in the old testament who abided by the law had some of the sweetest relationships with God (Moses, David, Daniel...).
So Jesus came b/c the law wasn't complete (not sure if that is the best word use). Now are focus is on a relationship with God not following His law. But at the same time how do we get to that relationship if we are contiually breaking the law. Grace yes, Jesus' blood yes.
Here's my (not so concrete, but kinda made sense to me) conclusion. Humans like laws/guidelines in their lives (hence checklists, to do list, ten comandments, civil laws, etc.). But there is a point were laws are followed b/c of pure love and joy. For most having the "checklist of christianity" is the way to get to that point of deep relationship. but if we stick to that list then it just becomes a list and not a relationship. once the relationship is formed then the list is followed b/c of willingness not b/c of the list.
not sure how much sense that make written out
Andrew
Yo Shipmate...
I kinda see your analogy about an email account... but not sure if I follow it all the way through... as far as did your mom really have an email account (was this b/c she went to cllege)... I think your decision on this has to do with whether you believe following Christ is a check box or not... If I sign up for an email account account, then I check a box... if I decide to follow Christ, then I am apart of a moving, breathing relationship.
I believe this can happen through a prayer but not just for the sake of saying "the prayer". If I bought my wife flowers and told her it was just b/c someone told me it would put me in a better relationship with her (and not b/c I just loved her enough to bring her flowers) she prolly wouldn't be that excited. I would imagine God prolly feels the same way.
I personally struggle with just signing up for an account, buying flowers, or checking a box. Although, I do belive this... we go on a journey, and somewhere along the way... we believe...
So... here's to I'm not sure, but, I am having a blast on the journey...
Love and Peace,
-J
ps
Hope classes are going well for your mom...
Hey Jeff...this is Chris Hankins...not the Chris who posted below...I really enjoyed your message Sunday night. I almost didn't come when I heard it was on Abraham, because I have heard a bazillion sermons on his life and was really tired...but I was so glad that I did. Between your message and the worship I really got alot out of last night! I really appreciated the effort you put into making the story fresh with putting his life into scenes...that was pretty sweet. Also, I was pretty blown away by the comparison of Abraham sacrificing his son Isaac with God sacrificing his son Christ. The idea that Christ may have been sacrificed on the same spot that Isaac was to sacrifice his son is mind blowing. In the story of Abraham a substitute ram was provided to take the place of Isaac on the altar. The thought that the ram was a representation of Christ being sacrificed in Isaac's and our place makes me smile and reminds me how much God love me.
Hey all,
I was out of town yesterday which is why i haven't replied to anything yet... thanks for your posts, i feel validated and affirmed now...
hunt, i'm glad the whole date and time thing resonated. i agree that it's mostly a comparative thing but also think it's probably helpful for confidence reasons to know that you are "in" with Jesus, if that makes sense.
But it begs the question, can you decide to believe something? Is belief a decision or is action a decision that is a reflection of belief. I would tend to think the latter, that my actions reflect my true beliefs. And I think there was a time in my life that I wanted to believe, but couldn't get myself to, so I acted as if I believed and belief followed. That's why Christ's words, "If you are really my disciples you will follow my commandments, and then you'll know the truth and the truth will set you free" are so valuable to me.
Chris, i totally agree that lists are useful, which is part of my disclaimer in my post, i just get too list-oriented too easily. I also understand the whole "believe and then follow" thing because i made a profession of faith in high school and don't feel like i really followed until after college (although i think i tried in hs). But given what I wrote above, i wonder if there's a difference between merely assenting that a set of facts is true and really believing in them... probably splitting hairs here.
Some post got deleted here and I don't know why... anyone know how that could happen?
Shipmate, I guess that comment is questioning if my love of the people in my life is conditional or not. Do i like people more, or express love more, when it's convenient for me or i can get something from people, when there's incentive? and the answer is yes. the statement about how abraham believed and it was credited righteousness implies a love from God not based on what abraham is or does (other than believe) but on who God is as a lover. Same as expressed in Romans, "While we were yet sinners, Christ died for us."
I like the email thing, kind of gets to that question of whether or not assenting to a set of ideas is really belief.
Jane, I know that feeling well of people thinking that 'church' is a big part of your life... conversation about spiritual things in our culture is just awkward sometimes, and taboo sometimes... frustrating... makes me think of that verse where Christ turns to the 12 and asks them if they're going to leave as well and Peter says, "Where would we go? We have believed and have come to know that you are the holy One of God." What I want to express to people is that my faith compells my action, and going to 'church' is a part of that, but really a pretty small part.
Andrew (George?), I think I agree with what your small group was talking about. my small group was in galatians recently and paul makes it pretty clear that the law was merely a tutor to lead us to Christ, really just to show us that we can't do it on our own. i might be reading into this, but I use that Isaiah verse about our righteousness being filthy rags a lot because i think we give ourselves too much credit. we think we have any amount of righteousness because we compare ourselves to other people instead of God. when we see God face to face i think we'll think whatever we felt righteous about was a joke. i also agree with your thoughts on list being an overflow of relationship, just not the means of relationship.
thanks for the conversation, look forward to reading your thoughts...
I don't know if Oswald Chambers' My Utmost For His Highest is Po-Mo enough these days, but I just happened to read a part of it today that seems to relate to the current discussion:
If we simply preach the effects of redemption in the human life instead of the revealed, divine truth regarding Jesus Himself, the result is not new birth in those who listen. The result is a refined religious lifestyle, and the Spirit of God cannot witness to it because such preaching is in a realm other than His.
What stood out to me was the mention of simply preaching "the effects of redemption" and how that only leads to a "refined religious lifestyle." I would suggest that this ties into what was talked about Sunday. If there is too much focus on the effects of becoming a "truly devoted follower of Christ", then faith is diluted down to a list of things that we simply try to check off in order to make sure that we are living up to some religious standard.
I'm really just restating what a lot of people have already said in this thread, but it was interesting to read what Chambers wrote, and I thought I would share. ;-)
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